Strong relationships don’t happen by accident. They’re built on trust, communication, and a willingness to show up for each other. In this episode of the Babies and Business Podcast, Avram and Rachel explore what it really means to “lean in” to the people in your life and business. They highlight the power of reciprocal relationships, where both sides give and receive support, creating balance and growth.

You’ll also hear insights on asking clearly for what you need, recognizing who’s genuinely willing to stand with you, and not taking it personally when others can’t meet you halfway. These lessons help you see where to invest your energy and how to build partnerships that truly thrive.

Show Notes

Key Highlights from this Episode:

• Exploring how trust, tension, and communication shape stronger relationships. 
• Avram reflects on how isolation in business and family life makes it easy to miss the power of connection.
• Rachel shares her insight on leaning in fully while sometimes neglecting her own needs.
• Clear communication—asking directly for what you need—creates space for others to step up.
• Failure isn’t a reflection of worthiness; it’s simply feedback that offers clarity.
• Stories of unexpected support from friends and business connections, and the surprises that come with reciprocity.
• Recognizing who leans in with you helps guide where to invest time and energy.
• Viewing partnerships as a co-op game where wins and losses are shared.
• A call to action: identify the people in your corner and strengthen those reciprocal relationships.

Mentions & Resources

Genesis Ecstasis Retreat – A transformational event at Imperian Ranch in Texas focused on personal growth, trust, and communication.

BNI (Business Networking International) – A professional networking group that highlights reciprocity and support in business relationships.

Brooke Bailey Photography – Photographer behind the Babies and Business cover art and Digital Harvest projects, known for going above and beyond to support others.

Digital Harvest – A digital marketing agency owned by Avram and Rachel, helping businesses grow through SEO, content, and strategy.

Episode Transcription

Avram: Got some thoughts for you today, things that will enrich your relationships and also find the fruits to those relationships that you’ve been putting some energy into.

Rachel: Yeah.

Avram: I think that it’s a pretty easy tendency to just kind of walk through life and not realize the power that some of your relationships hold that perhaps there’s more that’s possible with them. And sometimes I know my experience, as an entrepreneur, starting a new family, trying to do it all, it can feel pretty isolating and that there’s a lot of times when you think that maybe people don’t care and so then you just don’t reach out

Rachel: Yeah.

Avram: and you don’t say something.

We had this experience, Rachel and I in Texas. We went to this event called Ecstasis. You’ve heard us talk about Genesis. We’ll plug that in the show notes. You can go check that out. We went on this journey of transformation and we found this lesson out in the woods on the Imperian Ranch that we wanted to bring back and share with you.

It’s also something that we’ve reflected on. And found a lot of power in. So let’s set the stage for you, what we experienced, and then what’s showing up now. And I think you’ll reflect and see this possibility now in your life. So what was, what? What, what did they call it? What did we go out there and do?

Rachel: Yeah, so they called it the Hy-Vee. This is a, a buddy, exercise. And basically what it is, is you’re up in the air and you have these, tight ropes or tight wires that you’re standing on. Of course, you have all this harnessing on to keep you safe, but you’re here with a buddy and you’re, what you’re doing is you want to get into the plank position and you’re putting your hands together.

You’re touching each other’s hands, and then your feet are on these wires.

Avram: And the wires get further and further apart. As you walk out together.

Rachel: So it creates a triangle. So if you think of a triangle, it’s a pretty wide triangle. It starts out small at the point at the top, and then it goes to those two sides that are pretty far out. And what you’re doing is you’re leaning into your partner and that is the way you won’t fall, is leaning in and then walking further and further out towards the other end of the triangle.

Avram: There is nothing else to hold onto.

Rachel: Correct. It’s only you, you know, you have the safety stuff on, you have a harness and all these things, but yeah. So that was the exercise. So what is it that we’re doing? We’re leaning in. If you lean in and your partner doesn’t lean in, well then it becomes very unstable and you can fall because you’re not actually creating the tension that you need to move forward.

Which I think is really interesting because oftentimes we shy away from challenge and tension. But that’s exactly what we need to grow and move forward in this exercise anyway.

Avram: Yeah. It is a perfect metaphor for relationship because it becomes so obvious when your partner is not trusting

Rachel: Yes.

Avram: the process, you might think that they’re not trusting you.

Rachel: Correct. And you can get in your head about it. And you can start leaning away and you can get frustrated or take offense or distance. There can be a lot of things that come from that from your perception of them not leaning in. You can also have a perception of, well, I’m giving a hundred, why aren’t you giving a hundred?

Or maybe I’m giving 50. Maybe your viewpoint on a relationship is I give 50. You give 50, we get a hundred, you know.

Avram: Yep. You had a, a takeaway from your experience.

Rachel: I sure did.

Avram: What was that?

Rachel: Yeah. So I found myself leaning in and I found that this was not a challenging exercise for me, but it did have a beautiful lesson that I came away with, and that was that I lean in and I am really communicative. I let my partner know, I need you right now, and I’m here for you.

Basically giving her the confidence that she could lean into me because I was there and that she was doing a great job. And then I found myself, at one point my shoulder was hurting a little bit, and instead of me saying, Hey, my shoulder hurts, let’s stop. I said, how do you feel? Do you feel like we’ve done it?

And she said, oh, I think, I think we, I think we can go further. And so we did. I leaned in. I never stopped leaning in. We leaned in and we went forward and then we, we called it, but I found that in relationships, I, um, I lean into the person and

Avram: Maybe, maybe defer to them a little bit.

Rachel: Sometimes, and that, you know, I asked what my partner needed and it turned out that that last step didn’t, it wasn’t bad for me, but the opposite could have been true and good as well for me to say, Hey, my shoulder’s really hurting.

Uh, you know, I’m not able to go further. I’m your partner and, and we’re, we’re in this together.

Avram: Yep.

Rachel: Uh, maybe I need a break,

Avram: Yeah.

Rachel: but in my communication, often it is me subjecting my stuff to the other person. And asking what they need instead of myself and being honest about that. So that’s what I learned there in that experience.

Avram: Yeah, we both had similar takeaways. Mine with my partner was, was similar. It was that when I asked for and was specific about what I needed, it gave him the opportunity to step up and deliver it exactly. Versus me not saying anything and hoping that he could feel, we’re getting close to falling down here.

You know, if you don’t lean in, like we’re not gonna make it. It’s like, so how often do you know I sit around and assume that it’s obvious what my partner should be doing and partner? I’m using loosely because all kinds of relationships. It’s you and somebody else.

Rachel: Yeah.

Avram: And you know, that method of operating metaphorically on the Hy-Vee, you know, I almost fell through the V because my partner was leaning back and was not pushing back and not trusting what we were doing.

And so it’s like, well how much does that happen in regular life?

Rachel: Yeah.

Avram: Right. And

Rachel: Well, and

Avram: being let down frequently.

Rachel: Yeah, well, I think also there’s something else to be learned. It’s like, so I found myself leaning in and I just kept leaning in, so I would’ve ended up making us fall if I just kept leaning in, the person kept leaning away,

Avram: sure.

Rachel: and I, I see that as a metaphor for my life. And, and where that comes in is that I lean in and I lean in all the way, and often, I just lean in.

And when it fails, I often blame myself, but I was giving it my all as opposed to recognizing that there was another equation to it. So I often am very hard on myself when I fail, and it is attached to my worthiness because yeah, because of a lot of things in my past. But I find that I, I beat myself up about failing and failure in general because I was part of the equation, but the thing that I failed to recognize is that there was someone else part of the equation. And the falling or the failure isn’t actually what I think it means. It doesn’t mean what I think it means. It doesn’t mean that I’m worthless.

Avram: It doesn’t mean that I’m unlovable or any of those things, you know, in life.

Rachel: Yeah.

But I find myself leaning in and I, I find it too interesting that we can actually be surprised by who leans in in our life, who is there to support us. And in the metaphor of leaning in, it’s the people that support us, that there’s support around us, but we don’t see it.

Avram: Sometimes it’s unacknowledged.

Rachel: Yeah. And sometimes it’s because we are not leaning into that relationship.

We’re not even aware that it could be a thing. That it could lead to business or a friendship or any of those things. We just don’t see it.

Avram: I found it very obvious. Returning back to reality.

Rachel: Yeah.

Avram: I’m part of BNI, Business Networking International, part of a group I’ve been in for several years now, and I came back to that room and realized really quickly who was leaning in with me in relationship and who was not.

Rachel: Yeah.

Avram: You know, there’s, there’s a couple people that surprised me who are newer friends, right? Uh, my friend Kenzie, my friend Julie, both newer members of this BNI group, it’s like they’re there playing fool out just like me. And very quickly we’ve come to this reciprocity and willingness to lean in, to go out of our way to help each other grow our businesses. You know, there were some sleepers that I wasn’t aware of, just how much they would be willing to do for me.

Rachel: Yeah.

Avram: You know, they, there’s been nothing that they’ve said or done that would make you think otherwise.

Rachel: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Avram: but my friends, Mike Schlichte and David Mann, these two, right. They’re sleepers. You know, I did not acknowledge how much these two really wanted to do for me. Right. And then a surprise that came recently was my friend Brooke Bailey.

 She did our photography, by the way, for all the cover art stuff for Babies and Business. It’s been like almost two years since we had that photo shoot. Maybe a little bit more.

Rachel: Some of our DH stuff too

Avram: Yep. Yep. And um, so we met up for coffee the other day and it was like, wow, I cannot believe how much support this person is offering that I have only seen maybe two other times

Rachel: yeah. But it was because you were specific about asking for help.

Avram: This is also true.

Rachel: So it was in this same vein of the Hy-Vee, you had recognized that when you ask for specific help, people can give it.

She stepped up in a big way. She not only said yes to the thing that you were asking about you were talking about your workshop, and she said, yes, I would love to come and I’d like to bring a buddy.

Not only did she give you that, she also said, or she didn’t even tell you, she recorded a video to promote it. Put it on her stories. She did not have to do that, but that was majorly leaning in

Avram: Majorly leaning in, yes.

Rachel: Because we don’t really have a huge relationship with her but we can, and we see that now.

Avram: Yeah. And it’s like, so I’m sure that there are others that are there that I haven’t seen or fully acknowledged yet that, my intention is to lean in and see how people respond. Right. The, contrast I had with some other, coffee meetings and things with folks that I would, expect to lean in the way that I’ve been leaning in since coming home from Texas was also surprising. I’m like, oh I did this massive thing for you. You’re not even willing to like do this small thing for me or make any sort of commitment for me. Like, okay, I mean,

Rachel: I think you got clarity in that moment.

Avram: I got clarity in that moment.

Rachel: You had felt like your relationship was advancing that you had, you had gotten them some really great business and then in return, when you asked for reciprocity, you found that it was kind of all talk

Avram: Yeah. A lot of unwillingness.

Rachel: Yeah. Unwillingness to actually put forth this stuff. Yeah. And who knows what that person is going through.

Avram: That’s their thing.

Rachel: Maybe personal thing going on. Maybe it’s their own business. Maybe it’s, they don’t know the, the way that they’re going and their trajectory. But it was really interesting.

Avram: yeah.

Rachel: I see that clarity. And that can give you clarity of who to put your time into.

Avram: Well that’s, I think that’s kind of what, what the point is. It’s like not everybody can go up on the Hy-Vee with you and go the distance because of many reasons. It can be their stuff. It can be your stuff in regards to them. It can be all sorts of things. And so, you know, there’s only a, a number of people that you can go the distance with, and sometimes it’s they’re right in front of you and you haven’t acknowledged it.

Sometimes you have to go looking for them, and then sometimes they can just really surprise you.

Rachel: Yeah, and I think, you know, when I heard this quote, and I’ve heard it a lot, when people tell you or show you who they are, believe them. And I’ve always taken that to be on the negative side.

Avram: Yeah.

Rachel: That when they treat you poorly, don’t invest any more time in them. But in our business and in our desire to grow our business, if we’re leaning into a relationship that we want to help them grow their business, and we would like their help in return, we get real clarity on is this a relationship that will bring business for us? Is this worth fostering and, and feeding? And, I think that’s wonderful because when we get that feedback of their willingness, then we know, okay, are we okay with continuing a relationship that isn’t going to get us where we wanna go?

Or are we also okay with blessing them with where they are and moving on to someone else that could help us achieve those goals

Avram: Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel: just clarity and feedback.

Avram: And I would say like one of the additional things that’s changed for me is, you know, like you, I’ve been happy and willing to just lean in from the start.

Rachel: Yeah.

Avram: And I think that in a lot of ways I would then harbor some resentment if folks didn’t match me in that. There’s a lot of lessons for me inside of that in choosing those types of people. Right. There’s a whole, it’s like there’s a whole podcast episode there, right? But I think that that’s where true reciprocity begins. It’s our willingness to lean in first and then you know, those that are willing to lean back in and recognize the same, those are your people for this season.

Rachel: Absolutely. Absolutely. And also I love the, the, not making it mean anything. It does, it can just simply be feedback. And what is feedback? It’s just telling you it’s a signal. It could be a body feedback. It’s like, you know, my tummy hurts. Well, maybe you made something that hurts your tummy and maybe you need to take it easy.

Maybe you’re feeling really run down. Maybe going to the gym isn’t the thing that you should do. You know, pushing on to push on. Why are you trying to prove a point? Is it because you have all these shoulds running on in your head? We can make choices, informed choices and decisions based off of feedback from others or ourselves.

Avram: Yeah. It doesn’t mean anything. Doesn’t mean that they don’t like you. It doesn’t mean that they don’t want to. You know, for all you know, this person could be in the pits of despair in their life, and they just have nothing to give right now.

Rachel: Exactly. Exactly. Yep.

Avram: Simple as that. 

Rachel: Yep. It doesn’t have to mean anything about you.

Avram: Yeah. And at the end of the day, you do have to go find people that are willing to lean in with you.

Rachel: Absolutely. We all need that. I mean, why do they say that babies that aren’t touched don’t thrive? Like babies that aren’t touched at all. I think they can die. They need that physical touch, and we as humans need physical interactions. So let’s find our people, find our tribe, find the people that will lean in and help us.

And those endeavors that hear our goals and say, wow, oh my gosh, could I be a part of helping you achieve that? And I want that too. I wanna help people achieve their goals. I love to support people.

Avram: Yeah. Gosh. I could go on about it. I mean, well, I’ll share, I’ll share one more thing. I’ll share. I’ll share one more thing. I’ll share one more. It’s like, I also realized that, yes, I lean in and there’s another level to it that I’ve decided to embrace, which is a deeper commitment to that partner and that partnership. Who I’ve chosen to be with.

Rachel: Yeah.

Avram: Right, and it’s like, well, if I’m not willing to go out of my way for this person, why would they be willing to do the same for me? What does it mean to be willing to go outta your way, going above and beyond the call of your like regular day, to be willing to sacrifice a part of your day for somebody else, to do something that you wouldn’t normally do in honoring of their goals and the things that they would like to achieve. That’s what I’ve internalized, coming back.

Rachel: Yeah. Well, and I think it’s really a beautiful thing when we can see the partnerships that we choose as a co-op game that we win or lose together.

And it really is that simple that we win together and we lose together. And if we’re willing to lean in and like you said, go out of our way, then in that we can both win together.

Avram: That’s good.

Rachel: Yeah, so really taking it to heart that when we choose to partner up in some way, whether it’s in business or personal life or whatever that is, that we are saying, your wins are my wins. My wins are your wins, and our losses are our losses. So let’s get, maybe let’s get better at winning or learn from our losses and see where there was support in that loss or challenge or whatever that is, you know.

Avram: So I would take this as like a, call to arms.

And I want you to think about this buddy in your life, these people that you know are in your corner and that you are in theirs. And take this podcast episode and share this with them as a means of further defining your commitment to each other.

Right. As a talking point for understanding what leaning in looks like and what leaning out looks like as an understanding of, I think I’ve shared, you know, the, the commitments that you are making to each other, the sharing of your goals and the, the specific ask of what you need and what they need from you and bringing that clarity to the table. So that’s what I want you to think about, is this episode, sharing it with them as an opportunity for you to grow closer, further, define all of these things, and then watch your relationship evolve.

Rachel: Absolutely watch your business grow, watch you be more fulfilled, feel more fulfilled, feel more connected, feel all of those things. I think you’re gonna feel more alive because I know we have, as we’ve seen these things and we’ve chosen to be aware of them. That’s all.

Avram: I love it. Thank you for listening to the Babies and Business Podcast. If you wanna go check out some of the resources things that we mentioned in this podcast, you can always, go to the show notes included in every single episode. Babiesandbiz.com/episode number, I think this is. 1 0 5, so forward slash 1 0 5, whatever the episode number is, you can find the show notes for it.

We’re always plugging the stuff that we talk about in there so that you can find them, follow up on them and learn more about it. With that, we appreciate you for listening and we’ll catch you on the next one.

Rachel: Bye for now.